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Q&A Why not immerse in the early morning on erev Rosh Hashana?

Bottom Line: Apparently this Chayei Adam is based on the Arizal, so presumably it's kabbalistic. If you try to give a rational explanation to it, it creates problems. There's also a dispute if the ...

posted 4y ago by robev‭ · edited 4y ago by robev‭

Answer

#11: Post edited by

robev‭ · 2020-07-20T21:12:12Z (over 4 years ago)

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**Bottom Line**: Apparently this **Chayei Adam** is based on the **Arizal**, so presumably it's *kabbalistic*. If you try to give a rational explanation to it, it creates problems. There's also a dispute if the **Arizal** means at the beginning of the fifth hour (two hours before *chatzos*), or after the fifth hour (an hour before *chatzos*, like the **Chayei Adam** understands).
-----------------------------------------
I heard in a class from **Rav Hershel Schachter** on the International Date Line where he discussed this **Chayei Adam**. You can listen to the relevant part [here](https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/725223/rabbi-hershel-schachter/international-date-line/
) (1:03:48-1:10:44). The following is a summary.
The **Arizal** is quoted by his student **Rav Chaim Vital** in **Eitz Chaim** *Sha'ar HaKavanos* [*Inyan Vayehi Noam s.v.* ובתחילה and ואחר קריאת](https://tablet.otzar.org./en/book/book.php?book=199098&pagenum=26) as saying that on Friday, already starting from the fifth hour of the day, the holiness of Shabbos is present in the world. He says from that point on a person can go to the *Mikveh* and accept Shabbos upon themselves.
**Rav Moshe Shternbuch** in **Moadim UZmanim** 7:236 in footnote א quotes from a *Kabbalist* named **Rav Yosef Shapira** *zt"l*, who explained the **Arizal** to mean that since in the far East parts of the world, namely Australia, they accept Shabbos eight hours before Jerusalem (12 hours into the day for them), that means at the beginning of the fifth hour of the day in Jerusalem (as the **Arizal** lived in Israel, so that was his point of view) there is already somewhere in the world that Jews are keeping Shabbos. That brings the holiness of Shabbos into the world, allowing everywhere else to accept it as well (this all assumes that the **Arizal** held like the **Chazon Ish** about where the International Date Line begins, which is a whole separate *shmooze*).
**Rav Hershel Schachter** points out that this idea also appears in the **Mishneh LaMelech**'s book **Parshas Derachim** [§ 23 *s.v.* עוד נקדים](https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=48331&st=&pgnum=274). He brings a *Midrash* מעולם לא זזה שכינה מישראל בשבתות וימים טובים ואפילו בשבת של חול, The Divine Presence never left the Jewish people on Shabbos, Yom Tov, and on the Shabbos of the Weekday (**Zohar** III [*parshas Korach* p. 179b](https://www.sefaria.org/Zohar.3.179b.2?lang=he&with=all&lang2=he)). What does this latter term refer to? He quotes his father's teacher [**Rav Zerachia Guto**](https://jewiki.org.il/w/index.php?title=%D7%98%D7%99%D7%95%D7%98%D7%94:%D7%A8%D7%91%D7%99_%D7%96%D7%A8%D7%97%D7%99%D7%94_%D7%92%D7%95%D7%98%D7%94&mobileaction=toggle_view_desktop) who says that in Heaven, Shabbos starts when Jerusalem starts keeping Shabbos. Since there are parts in the world that start keeping Shabbos before Jerusalem (i.e. Australia), that's called the Shabbos of the Weekday. Although it's still a weekday in Jerusalem, since there are Jews in the world observing Shabbos, the Divine Presence is with the Jewish people. We see that there's a holiness brought into the world when somewhere is keeping Shabbos.
**Rav Shternbuch** adds that according to this explanation (which he adds has no support in the *poskim*), people in Europe can accept Shabbos already after only a few hours into the day (8 AM), and more surprisingly people in North America around Midnight the night before Friday. He doesn't discuss it, but I wonder what would be in Australia itself? Maybe this is only *lekulah*, for a leniency, but it doesn't create stringencies (as according to this, they can't accept Shabbos until it's sunset).
I might have missed if this is also in **Moadim UZmanim**, but **Rav Hershel Schachter** uses all of this to explain the **Chayei Adam**. He says the **Chayei Adam** is coming from the **Arizal**. Since the **Arizal** says the holiness of the day starts already from the fifth hour (although the **Chayei Adam** understood this to mean *after* five hours, which is an hour before *chatzos*; if you look at the **Arizal** the way we have it, he explicitly says the *start* of the fifth hour), therefore that's the time one can go to the *Mikveh* in preparation for that day. The same is true for Rosh Hashanah. **Rav Hershel Schachter** points out that according to this **Rav Yosef Shapira**, in America they wouldn't need to follow the **Chayei Adam**/**Mishnah Berurah** not to go before an hour before *chatzos*. Rather, they could go to the *Mikveh* even in the middle of the night, since somewhere in the world it's already Rosh Hashanah. Although, that's clearly not the practice.

**Bottom Line**: Apparently this **Chayei Adam** is based on the **Arizal**, so presumably it's *kabbalistic*. If you try to give a rational explanation to it, it creates problems. There's also a dispute if the **Arizal** means at the beginning of the fifth hour (two hours before *chatzos*), or after the fifth hour (an hour before *chatzos*, like the **Chayei Adam** understands).
-----------------------------------------
I heard a recording from **Rav Hershel Schachter** on the International Date Line where he discussed this **Chayei Adam**. You can listen to the relevant part [here](https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/725223/rabbi-hershel-schachter/international-date-line/
) (1:03:48-1:10:44). The following is a summary.
The **Arizal** is quoted by his student **Rav Chaim Vital** in **Eitz Chaim** *Sha'ar HaKavanos* [*Inyan Vayehi Noam s.v.* ובתחילה and ואחר קריאת](https://tablet.otzar.org./en/book/book.php?book=199098&pagenum=26) as saying that on Friday, already starting from the fifth hour of the day, the holiness of Shabbos is present in the world. He says from that point on a person can go to the *Mikveh* and accept Shabbos upon themselves.
**Rav Moshe Shternbuch** in **Moadim UZmanim** 7:236 in footnote א quotes from a *Kabbalist* named **Rav Yosef Shapira** *zt"l*, who explained the **Arizal** to mean that since in the far East parts of the world, namely Australia, they accept Shabbos eight hours before Jerusalem (12 hours into the day for them), that means at the beginning of the fifth hour of the day in Jerusalem (as the **Arizal** lived in Israel, so that was his point of view) there is already somewhere in the world that Jews are keeping Shabbos. That brings the holiness of Shabbos into the world, allowing everywhere else to accept it as well (this all assumes that the **Arizal** held like the **Chazon Ish** about where the International Date Line begins, which is a whole separate *shmooze*).
**Rav Hershel Schachter** points out that this idea also appears in the **Mishneh LaMelech**'s book **Parshas Derachim** [§ 23 *s.v.* עוד נקדים](https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=48331&st=&pgnum=274). He brings a *Midrash* מעולם לא זזה שכינה מישראל בשבתות וימים טובים ואפילו בשבת של חול, The Divine Presence never left the Jewish people on Shabbos, Yom Tov, and on the Shabbos of the Weekday (**Zohar** III [*parshas Korach* p. 179b](https://www.sefaria.org/Zohar.3.179b.2?lang=he&with=all&lang2=he)). What does this latter term refer to? He quotes his father's teacher [**Rav Zerachia Guto**](https://jewiki.org.il/w/index.php?title=%D7%98%D7%99%D7%95%D7%98%D7%94:%D7%A8%D7%91%D7%99_%D7%96%D7%A8%D7%97%D7%99%D7%94_%D7%92%D7%95%D7%98%D7%94&mobileaction=toggle_view_desktop) who says that in Heaven, Shabbos starts when Jerusalem starts keeping Shabbos. Since there are parts in the world that start keeping Shabbos before Jerusalem (i.e. Australia), that's called the Shabbos of the Weekday. Although it's still a weekday in Jerusalem, since there are Jews in the world observing Shabbos, the Divine Presence is with the Jewish people. We see that there's a holiness brought into the world when somewhere is keeping Shabbos.
**Rav Shternbuch** adds that according to this explanation (which he adds has no support in the *poskim*), people in Europe can accept Shabbos already after only a few hours into the day (8 AM), and more surprisingly people in North America around Midnight the night before Friday. He doesn't discuss it, but I wonder what would be in Australia itself? Maybe this is only *lekulah*, for a leniency, but it doesn't create stringencies (as according to this, they can't accept Shabbos until it's sunset).
**Rav Hershel Schachter** uses all of this to explain the **Chayei Adam**. He says the **Chayei Adam** is coming from the **Arizal**. Even though we don't say you can accept Shabbos so early, we do say you can go to the *Mikveh* starting then. Since the **Arizal** says the holiness of the day starts already from the fifth hour (although the **Chayei Adam** understood this to mean *after* five hours, which is an hour before *chatzos*; if you look at the **Arizal** the way we have it, he explicitly says the *start* of the fifth hour), therefore that's the time one can go to the *Mikveh* in preparation for that day. The same is true for Rosh Hashanah. **Rav Hershel Schachter** points out that according to this **Rav Yosef Shapira**, in America they wouldn't need to follow the **Chayei Adam**/**Mishnah Berurah** not to go before an hour before *chatzos*. Rather, they could go to the *Mikveh* even in the middle of the night, since somewhere in the world it's already Rosh Hashanah. Although, that's clearly not the practice.

#10: Post edited by

robev‭ · 2020-07-20T19:29:01Z (over 4 years ago)

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**Bottom Line**: Apparently this **Chayei Adam** is based on the **Arizal**, so presumably it's *kabbalistic*. If you try to give a rational explanation to it, it creates problems. There's also a dispute if the **Arizal** means at the beginning of the fifth hour (two hours before *chatzos*), or after the fifth hour (an hour before *chatzos*, like the **Chayei Adam** understands).
-----------------------------------------
I heard in a class from **Rav Hershel Schachter** on the International Date Line where he discussed this **Chayei Adam**. You can listen to the relevant part [here](https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/725223/rabbi-hershel-schachter/international-date-line/
) (1:03:48-1:10:44). The following is a summary.
The **Arizal** is quoted by his student **Rav Chaim Vital** in **Eitz Chaim** *Sha'ar HaKavanos* [*Inyan Vayehi Noam s.v.* ובתחילה and ואחר קריאת](https://tablet.otzar.org./en/book/book.php?book=199098&pagenum=26) as saying that on Friday, already starting from the fifth hour of the day, the holiness of Shabbos is present in the world. He says from that point on a person can go to the *Mikveh* and accept Shabbos upon themselves.
**Rav Moshe Shternbuch** in **Moadim UZmanim** 7:236 in footnote א quotes from a *Kabbalist* named **Rav Yosef Shapira** *zt"l*, who explained the **Arizal** to mean that since in the far East parts of the world, namely Australia, they accept Shabbos eight hours before Jerusalem (12 hours into the day for them), that means at the beginning of the fifth hour of the day in Jerusalem (as the **Arizal** lived in Israel, so that was his point of view) there is already somewhere in the world that Jews are keeping Shabbos. That brings the holiness of Shabbos into the world, allowing everywhere else to accept it as well (this all assumes that the **Arizal** held like the **Chazon Ish** about where the International Date Line begins, which is a whole separate *shmooze*).
**Rav Hershel Schachter** points out that this idea also appears in the **Mishneh LaMelech**'s book **Parshas Derachim** [§ 23 *s.v.* עוד נקדים](https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=48331&st=&pgnum=274). He brings a *Midrash* מעולם לא זזה שכינה מישראל בשבתות וימים טובים ואפילו בשבת של חול, The Divine Presence never left the Jewish people on Shabbos, Yom Tov, and on the Shabbos of the Weekday (**Zohar** III [*parshas Korach* p. 179b](https://www.sefaria.org/Zohar.3.179b.2?lang=he&with=all&lang2=he)). What does this latter term refer to? He quotes his father's teacher [**Rav Zerachia Guto**](https://jewiki.org.il/w/index.php?title=%D7%98%D7%99%D7%95%D7%98%D7%94:%D7%A8%D7%91%D7%99_%D7%96%D7%A8%D7%97%D7%99%D7%94_%D7%92%D7%95%D7%98%D7%94&mobileaction=toggle_view_desktop) who says that in Heaven, Shabbos starts when Jerusalem starts keeping Shabbos. Since there are parts in the world that start keeping Shabbos before Jerusalem (i.e. Australia), that's called the Shabbos of the Weekday. Although it's still a weekday in Jerusalem, since there are Jews in the world observing Shabbos, the Divine Presence is with the Jewish people. We see that there's a holiness brought into the world when somewhere is keeping Shabbos.
**Rav Shternbuch** adds that according to this explanation (which he adds has no support in the *poskim*), people in Europe can accept Shabbos already after only a few hours into the day (8 AM), and more surprisingly people in North America around Midnight the night before Friday. He doesn't discuss it, but I wonder what would be in Australia itself? Maybe this is only *lekulah*, for a leniency, but it doesn't create stringencies (as according to this, they can't accept Shabbos until it's sunset).
I might have missed if this is also in **Moadim UZmanim**, but **Rav Hershel Schachter** uses all of this to explain the **Chayei Adam**. He says the **Chayei Adam** is coming from the **Arizal**. Since the **Arizal** says the holiness of the day starts already from the fifth hour (although the **Chayei Adam** understood this to mean *after* five hours, which is an hour before *chatzos*; if you look at the **Arizal** the way we have it, he explicitly says the *start* of the fifth hour). Therefore that's the time to go to the *Mikveh* in preparation for that day. The same is true for Rosh Hashanah. **Rav Hershel Schachter** points out that according to this **Rav Yosef Shapira**, in America they wouldn't need to follow the **Chayei Adam**/**Mishnah Berurah** not to go before an hour before *chatzos*. Rather, they could go to the *Mikveh* even in the middle of the night, since somewhere in the world it's already Rosh Hashanah. Although, that's clearly not the practice.

**Bottom Line**: Apparently this **Chayei Adam** is based on the **Arizal**, so presumably it's *kabbalistic*. If you try to give a rational explanation to it, it creates problems. There's also a dispute if the **Arizal** means at the beginning of the fifth hour (two hours before *chatzos*), or after the fifth hour (an hour before *chatzos*, like the **Chayei Adam** understands).
-----------------------------------------
I heard in a class from **Rav Hershel Schachter** on the International Date Line where he discussed this **Chayei Adam**. You can listen to the relevant part [here](https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/725223/rabbi-hershel-schachter/international-date-line/
) (1:03:48-1:10:44). The following is a summary.
The **Arizal** is quoted by his student **Rav Chaim Vital** in **Eitz Chaim** *Sha'ar HaKavanos* [*Inyan Vayehi Noam s.v.* ובתחילה and ואחר קריאת](https://tablet.otzar.org./en/book/book.php?book=199098&pagenum=26) as saying that on Friday, already starting from the fifth hour of the day, the holiness of Shabbos is present in the world. He says from that point on a person can go to the *Mikveh* and accept Shabbos upon themselves.
**Rav Moshe Shternbuch** in **Moadim UZmanim** 7:236 in footnote א quotes from a *Kabbalist* named **Rav Yosef Shapira** *zt"l*, who explained the **Arizal** to mean that since in the far East parts of the world, namely Australia, they accept Shabbos eight hours before Jerusalem (12 hours into the day for them), that means at the beginning of the fifth hour of the day in Jerusalem (as the **Arizal** lived in Israel, so that was his point of view) there is already somewhere in the world that Jews are keeping Shabbos. That brings the holiness of Shabbos into the world, allowing everywhere else to accept it as well (this all assumes that the **Arizal** held like the **Chazon Ish** about where the International Date Line begins, which is a whole separate *shmooze*).
**Rav Hershel Schachter** points out that this idea also appears in the **Mishneh LaMelech**'s book **Parshas Derachim** [§ 23 *s.v.* עוד נקדים](https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=48331&st=&pgnum=274). He brings a *Midrash* מעולם לא זזה שכינה מישראל בשבתות וימים טובים ואפילו בשבת של חול, The Divine Presence never left the Jewish people on Shabbos, Yom Tov, and on the Shabbos of the Weekday (**Zohar** III [*parshas Korach* p. 179b](https://www.sefaria.org/Zohar.3.179b.2?lang=he&with=all&lang2=he)). What does this latter term refer to? He quotes his father's teacher [**Rav Zerachia Guto**](https://jewiki.org.il/w/index.php?title=%D7%98%D7%99%D7%95%D7%98%D7%94:%D7%A8%D7%91%D7%99_%D7%96%D7%A8%D7%97%D7%99%D7%94_%D7%92%D7%95%D7%98%D7%94&mobileaction=toggle_view_desktop) who says that in Heaven, Shabbos starts when Jerusalem starts keeping Shabbos. Since there are parts in the world that start keeping Shabbos before Jerusalem (i.e. Australia), that's called the Shabbos of the Weekday. Although it's still a weekday in Jerusalem, since there are Jews in the world observing Shabbos, the Divine Presence is with the Jewish people. We see that there's a holiness brought into the world when somewhere is keeping Shabbos.
**Rav Shternbuch** adds that according to this explanation (which he adds has no support in the *poskim*), people in Europe can accept Shabbos already after only a few hours into the day (8 AM), and more surprisingly people in North America around Midnight the night before Friday. He doesn't discuss it, but I wonder what would be in Australia itself? Maybe this is only *lekulah*, for a leniency, but it doesn't create stringencies (as according to this, they can't accept Shabbos until it's sunset).
I might have missed if this is also in **Moadim UZmanim**, but **Rav Hershel Schachter** uses all of this to explain the **Chayei Adam**. He says the **Chayei Adam** is coming from the **Arizal**. Since the **Arizal** says the holiness of the day starts already from the fifth hour (although the **Chayei Adam** understood this to mean *after* five hours, which is an hour before *chatzos*; if you look at the **Arizal** the way we have it, he explicitly says the *start* of the fifth hour), therefore that's the time one can go to the *Mikveh* in preparation for that day. The same is true for Rosh Hashanah. **Rav Hershel Schachter** points out that according to this **Rav Yosef Shapira**, in America they wouldn't need to follow the **Chayei Adam**/**Mishnah Berurah** not to go before an hour before *chatzos*. Rather, they could go to the *Mikveh* even in the middle of the night, since somewhere in the world it's already Rosh Hashanah. Although, that's clearly not the practice.

#9: Post edited by

robev‭ · 2020-07-20T17:22:24Z (over 4 years ago)

Copy Link

Raw

Markdown

**Bottom Line**: Apparently this **Chayei Adam** is based on the **Arizal**, so presumably it's *kabbalistic*. If you try to give a rational explanation to it, it creates problems. There's also a dispute if the **Arizal** means at the beginning of the fifth hour (two hours before *chatzos*), or after the fifth hour (an hour before *chatzos*, like the **Chayei Adam** understands).
-----------------------------------------
I heard in a class from **Rav Hershel Schachter** on the International Date Line where he discussed this **Chayei Adam**. You can listen to the relevant part [here](https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/725223/rabbi-hershel-schachter/international-date-line/
) (1:03:48-1:10:44). The following is a summary.
The **Arizal** is quoted by his student **Rav Chaim Vital** in **Eitz Chaim** *Sha'ar HaKavanos* [*Inyan Vayehi Noam s.v.* ובתחילה and ואחר קריאת](https://tablet.otzar.org./en/book/book.php?book=199098&pagenum=26) as saying that on Friday, already starting from the fifth hour of the day, the holiness of Shabbos is present in the world. He says from that point on a person can go to the *Mikveh* and accept Shabbos upon themselves.
**Rav Moshe Shternbuch** in **Moadim UZmanim** 7:236 in footnote א quotes from a *Kabbalist* named **Rav Yosef Shapira** *zt"l*, who explained the **Arizal** to mean that since in the far East parts of the world, namely Australia, they accept Shabbos eight hours before Jerusalem (12 hours into the day for them), that means at the beginning of the fifth hour of the day in Jerusalem (as the **Arizal** lived in Israel, so that was his point of view) there is already somewhere in the world that Jews are keeping Shabbos. That brings the holiness of Shabbos into the world, allowing everywhere else to accept it as well (this all assumes that the **Arizal** held like the **Chazon Ish** about where the International Date Line begins, which is a whole separate *shmooze*).
**Rav Hershel Schachter** points out that this idea also appears in the **Mishneh LaMelech**'s book **Parshas Derachim** [§ 23 *s.v.* עוד נקדים](https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=48331&st=&pgnum=274). He brings a *Midrash* מעולם לא זזה שכינה מישראל בשבתות וימים טובים ואפילו בשבת של חול, The Divine Presence never left the Jewish people on Shabbos, Yom Tov, and on the Shabbos of the Weekday (**Zohar** III [*parshas Korach* p. 179b](https://www.sefaria.org/Zohar.3.179b.2?lang=he&with=all&lang2=he)). What does this latter term refer to? He quotes his father's teacher [**Rav Zerachia Guto**](https://jewiki.org.il/w/index.php?title=%D7%98%D7%99%D7%95%D7%98%D7%94:%D7%A8%D7%91%D7%99_%D7%96%D7%A8%D7%97%D7%99%D7%94_%D7%92%D7%95%D7%98%D7%94&mobileaction=toggle_view_desktop) who says that in Heaven, Shabbos starts when Jerusalem starts keeping Shabbos. Since there are parts in the world that start keeping Shabbos before Jerusalem (i.e. Australia), that's called the Shabbos of the Weekday. Although it's still a weekday in Jerusalem, but there are Jews in the world observing Shabbos, still, the Divine Presence is with the Jewish people. We see that there's a holiness brought into the world when somewhere is keeping Shabbos.
**Rav Shternbuch** adds that according to this explanation (which he adds has no support in the *poskim*), people in Europe can accept Shabbos already after only a few hours into the day (8 AM), and more surprisingly people in North America around Midnight the night before Friday. He doesn't discuss it, but I wonder what would be in Australia itself? Maybe this is only *lekulah*, for a leniency, but it doesn't create stringencies (as according to this, they can't accept Shabbos until it's sunset).
I might have missed if this is also in **Moadim UZmanim**, but **Rav Hershel Schachter** uses all of this to explain the **Chayei Adam**. He says the **Chayei Adam** is coming from the **Arizal**. Since the **Arizal** says the holiness of the day starts already from the fifth hour (although the **Chayei Adam** understood this to mean *after* five hours, which is an hour before *chatzos*; if you look at the **Arizal** the way we have it, he explicitly says the *start* of the fifth hour). Therefore that's the time to go to the *Mikveh* in preparation for that day. The same is true for Rosh Hashanah. **Rav Hershel Schachter** points out that according to this **Rav Yosef Shapira**, in America they wouldn't need to follow the **Chayei Adam**/**Mishnah Berurah** not to go before an hour before *chatzos*. Rather, they could go to the *Mikveh* even in the middle of the night, since somewhere in the world it's already Rosh Hashanah. Although, that's clearly not the practice.

**Bottom Line**: Apparently this **Chayei Adam** is based on the **Arizal**, so presumably it's *kabbalistic*. If you try to give a rational explanation to it, it creates problems. There's also a dispute if the **Arizal** means at the beginning of the fifth hour (two hours before *chatzos*), or after the fifth hour (an hour before *chatzos*, like the **Chayei Adam** understands).
-----------------------------------------
I heard in a class from **Rav Hershel Schachter** on the International Date Line where he discussed this **Chayei Adam**. You can listen to the relevant part [here](https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/725223/rabbi-hershel-schachter/international-date-line/
) (1:03:48-1:10:44). The following is a summary.
The **Arizal** is quoted by his student **Rav Chaim Vital** in **Eitz Chaim** *Sha'ar HaKavanos* [*Inyan Vayehi Noam s.v.* ובתחילה and ואחר קריאת](https://tablet.otzar.org./en/book/book.php?book=199098&pagenum=26) as saying that on Friday, already starting from the fifth hour of the day, the holiness of Shabbos is present in the world. He says from that point on a person can go to the *Mikveh* and accept Shabbos upon themselves.
**Rav Moshe Shternbuch** in **Moadim UZmanim** 7:236 in footnote א quotes from a *Kabbalist* named **Rav Yosef Shapira** *zt"l*, who explained the **Arizal** to mean that since in the far East parts of the world, namely Australia, they accept Shabbos eight hours before Jerusalem (12 hours into the day for them), that means at the beginning of the fifth hour of the day in Jerusalem (as the **Arizal** lived in Israel, so that was his point of view) there is already somewhere in the world that Jews are keeping Shabbos. That brings the holiness of Shabbos into the world, allowing everywhere else to accept it as well (this all assumes that the **Arizal** held like the **Chazon Ish** about where the International Date Line begins, which is a whole separate *shmooze*).
**Rav Hershel Schachter** points out that this idea also appears in the **Mishneh LaMelech**'s book **Parshas Derachim** [§ 23 *s.v.* עוד נקדים](https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=48331&st=&pgnum=274). He brings a *Midrash* מעולם לא זזה שכינה מישראל בשבתות וימים טובים ואפילו בשבת של חול, The Divine Presence never left the Jewish people on Shabbos, Yom Tov, and on the Shabbos of the Weekday (**Zohar** III [*parshas Korach* p. 179b](https://www.sefaria.org/Zohar.3.179b.2?lang=he&with=all&lang2=he)). What does this latter term refer to? He quotes his father's teacher [**Rav Zerachia Guto**](https://jewiki.org.il/w/index.php?title=%D7%98%D7%99%D7%95%D7%98%D7%94:%D7%A8%D7%91%D7%99_%D7%96%D7%A8%D7%97%D7%99%D7%94_%D7%92%D7%95%D7%98%D7%94&mobileaction=toggle_view_desktop) who says that in Heaven, Shabbos starts when Jerusalem starts keeping Shabbos. Since there are parts in the world that start keeping Shabbos before Jerusalem (i.e. Australia), that's called the Shabbos of the Weekday. Although it's still a weekday in Jerusalem, since there are Jews in the world observing Shabbos, the Divine Presence is with the Jewish people. We see that there's a holiness brought into the world when somewhere is keeping Shabbos.
**Rav Shternbuch** adds that according to this explanation (which he adds has no support in the *poskim*), people in Europe can accept Shabbos already after only a few hours into the day (8 AM), and more surprisingly people in North America around Midnight the night before Friday. He doesn't discuss it, but I wonder what would be in Australia itself? Maybe this is only *lekulah*, for a leniency, but it doesn't create stringencies (as according to this, they can't accept Shabbos until it's sunset).
I might have missed if this is also in **Moadim UZmanim**, but **Rav Hershel Schachter** uses all of this to explain the **Chayei Adam**. He says the **Chayei Adam** is coming from the **Arizal**. Since the **Arizal** says the holiness of the day starts already from the fifth hour (although the **Chayei Adam** understood this to mean *after* five hours, which is an hour before *chatzos*; if you look at the **Arizal** the way we have it, he explicitly says the *start* of the fifth hour). Therefore that's the time to go to the *Mikveh* in preparation for that day. The same is true for Rosh Hashanah. **Rav Hershel Schachter** points out that according to this **Rav Yosef Shapira**, in America they wouldn't need to follow the **Chayei Adam**/**Mishnah Berurah** not to go before an hour before *chatzos*. Rather, they could go to the *Mikveh* even in the middle of the night, since somewhere in the world it's already Rosh Hashanah. Although, that's clearly not the practice.

#8: Post edited by

robev‭ · 2020-07-20T17:21:09Z (over 4 years ago)

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**Bottom Line**: Apparently this **Chayei Adam** is based on the **Arizal**, so presumably it's *kabbalistic*. If you try to give a rational explanation to it, it creates problems. There's also a dispute if the **Arizal** means at the beginning of the fifth hour (two hours before *chatzos*), or after the fifth hour (an hour before *chatzos*, like the **Chayei Adam** understands).
-----------------------------------------
I heard in a class from **Rav Hershel Schachter** on the International Date Line where he discussed this **Chayei Adam**. You can listen to the relevant part [here](https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/725223/rabbi-hershel-schachter/international-date-line/
) (1:03:48-1:10:44). The following is a summary.
The **Arizal** is quoted by his student **Rav Chaim Vital** in **Eitz Chaim** *Sha'ar HaKavanos* [*Inyan Vayehi Noam s.v.* ובתחילה and ואחר קריאת](https://tablet.otzar.org./en/book/book.php?book=199098&pagenum=26) as saying that on Friday, already starting from the fifth hour of the day, the holiness of Shabbos is present in the world. He says from that point on a person can go to the Mikveh and accept Shabbos upon themselves.
**Rav Moshe Shternbuch** in **Moadim UZmanim** 7:236 in footnote א quotes from a *Kabbalist* named **Rav Yosef Shapira** *zt"l*, who explained the **Arizal** to mean that since in the far East parts of the world, namely Australia, they accept Shabbos eight hours before Jerusalem (12 hours into the day for them), that means at the beginning of the fifth hour of the day in Jerusalem (as the **Arizal** lived in Israel, so that was his point of view) there is already somewhere in the world that Jews are keeping Shabbos. That brings the holiness of Shabbos into the world, allowing everywhere else to accept it as well (this all assumes that the **Arizal** held like the **Chazon Ish** about where the International Date Line begins, which is a whole separate *shmooze*).
**Rav Hershel Schachter** points out that this idea also appears in the **Mishneh LaMelech**'s book **Parshas Derachim** [§ 23 *s.v.* עוד נקדים](https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=48331&st=&pgnum=274). He brings a *Midrash* מעולם לא זזה שכינה מישראל בשבתות וימים טובים ואפילו בשבת של חול, The Divine Presence never left the Jewish people on Shabbos, Yom Tov, and on the Shabbos of the Weekday (**Zohar** III [*parshas Korach* p. 179b](https://www.sefaria.org/Zohar.3.179b.2?lang=he&with=all&lang2=he)). What does this latter term refer to? He quotes his father's tacher [**Rav Zerachia Guto**](https://jewiki.org.il/w/index.php?title=%D7%98%D7%99%D7%95%D7%98%D7%94:%D7%A8%D7%91%D7%99_%D7%96%D7%A8%D7%97%D7%99%D7%94_%D7%92%D7%95%D7%98%D7%94&mobileaction=toggle_view_desktop) who says that in Heaven, Shabbos starts when Jerusalem starts keeping Shabbos. Since there are parts in the world that start keeping Shabbos before Jerusalem (i.e. Australia), that's called the Shabbos of the Weekday. Although it's still a weekday in Jerusalem, but there are Jews in the world observing Shabbos, still, the Divine Presence is with the Jewish people. We see that there's a holiness brought into the world when somewhere is keeping Shabbos.
**Rav Shternbuch** adds that according to this explanation (which he adds has no support in the *poskim*), people in Europe can accept Shabbos already after only a few hours into the day (8 AM), and more surprisingly people in North America around Midnight the night before Friday. He doesn't discuss it, but I wonder what would be in Australia itself? Maybe this is only *lekulah*, for a leniency, but it doesn't create stringencies (as according to this, they can't accept Shabbos until it's sunset).
I might have missed if this is also in **Moadim UZmanim**, but **Rav Hershel Schachter** uses all of this to explain the **Chayei Adam**. He says the **Chayei Adam** is coming from the **Arizal**. Since the **Arizal** says the holiness of the day starts already from the fifth hour (although the **Chayei Adam** understood this to mean *after* five hours, which is an hour before *chatzos*; if you look at the **Arizal** the way we have it, he explicitly says the *start* of the fifth hour). Therefore that's the time to go to the *Mikveh* in preparation for that day. The same is true for Rosh Hashanah. **Rav Hershel Schachter** points out that according to this **Rav Yosef Shapira**, in America they wouldn't need to follow the **Chayei Adam**/**Mishnah Berurah** not to go before an hour before *chatzos*. Rather, they could go to the *Mikveh* even in the middle of the night, since somewhere in the world it's already Rosh Hashanah. Although, that's clearly not the practice.

**Bottom Line**: Apparently this **Chayei Adam** is based on the **Arizal**, so presumably it's *kabbalistic*. If you try to give a rational explanation to it, it creates problems. There's also a dispute if the **Arizal** means at the beginning of the fifth hour (two hours before *chatzos*), or after the fifth hour (an hour before *chatzos*, like the **Chayei Adam** understands).
-----------------------------------------
I heard in a class from **Rav Hershel Schachter** on the International Date Line where he discussed this **Chayei Adam**. You can listen to the relevant part [here](https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/725223/rabbi-hershel-schachter/international-date-line/
) (1:03:48-1:10:44). The following is a summary.
The **Arizal** is quoted by his student **Rav Chaim Vital** in **Eitz Chaim** *Sha'ar HaKavanos* [*Inyan Vayehi Noam s.v.* ובתחילה and ואחר קריאת](https://tablet.otzar.org./en/book/book.php?book=199098&pagenum=26) as saying that on Friday, already starting from the fifth hour of the day, the holiness of Shabbos is present in the world. He says from that point on a person can go to the *Mikveh* and accept Shabbos upon themselves.
**Rav Moshe Shternbuch** in **Moadim UZmanim** 7:236 in footnote א quotes from a *Kabbalist* named **Rav Yosef Shapira** *zt"l*, who explained the **Arizal** to mean that since in the far East parts of the world, namely Australia, they accept Shabbos eight hours before Jerusalem (12 hours into the day for them), that means at the beginning of the fifth hour of the day in Jerusalem (as the **Arizal** lived in Israel, so that was his point of view) there is already somewhere in the world that Jews are keeping Shabbos. That brings the holiness of Shabbos into the world, allowing everywhere else to accept it as well (this all assumes that the **Arizal** held like the **Chazon Ish** about where the International Date Line begins, which is a whole separate *shmooze*).
**Rav Hershel Schachter** points out that this idea also appears in the **Mishneh LaMelech**'s book **Parshas Derachim** [§ 23 *s.v.* עוד נקדים](https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=48331&st=&pgnum=274). He brings a *Midrash* מעולם לא זזה שכינה מישראל בשבתות וימים טובים ואפילו בשבת של חול, The Divine Presence never left the Jewish people on Shabbos, Yom Tov, and on the Shabbos of the Weekday (**Zohar** III [*parshas Korach* p. 179b](https://www.sefaria.org/Zohar.3.179b.2?lang=he&with=all&lang2=he)). What does this latter term refer to? He quotes his father's teacher [**Rav Zerachia Guto**](https://jewiki.org.il/w/index.php?title=%D7%98%D7%99%D7%95%D7%98%D7%94:%D7%A8%D7%91%D7%99_%D7%96%D7%A8%D7%97%D7%99%D7%94_%D7%92%D7%95%D7%98%D7%94&mobileaction=toggle_view_desktop) who says that in Heaven, Shabbos starts when Jerusalem starts keeping Shabbos. Since there are parts in the world that start keeping Shabbos before Jerusalem (i.e. Australia), that's called the Shabbos of the Weekday. Although it's still a weekday in Jerusalem, but there are Jews in the world observing Shabbos, still, the Divine Presence is with the Jewish people. We see that there's a holiness brought into the world when somewhere is keeping Shabbos.
**Rav Shternbuch** adds that according to this explanation (which he adds has no support in the *poskim*), people in Europe can accept Shabbos already after only a few hours into the day (8 AM), and more surprisingly people in North America around Midnight the night before Friday. He doesn't discuss it, but I wonder what would be in Australia itself? Maybe this is only *lekulah*, for a leniency, but it doesn't create stringencies (as according to this, they can't accept Shabbos until it's sunset).
I might have missed if this is also in **Moadim UZmanim**, but **Rav Hershel Schachter** uses all of this to explain the **Chayei Adam**. He says the **Chayei Adam** is coming from the **Arizal**. Since the **Arizal** says the holiness of the day starts already from the fifth hour (although the **Chayei Adam** understood this to mean *after* five hours, which is an hour before *chatzos*; if you look at the **Arizal** the way we have it, he explicitly says the *start* of the fifth hour). Therefore that's the time to go to the *Mikveh* in preparation for that day. The same is true for Rosh Hashanah. **Rav Hershel Schachter** points out that according to this **Rav Yosef Shapira**, in America they wouldn't need to follow the **Chayei Adam**/**Mishnah Berurah** not to go before an hour before *chatzos*. Rather, they could go to the *Mikveh* even in the middle of the night, since somewhere in the world it's already Rosh Hashanah. Although, that's clearly not the practice.

#7: Post edited by

robev‭ · 2020-07-20T17:06:13Z (over 4 years ago)

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~~This is probably not the answer you were expecting ;-).~~
I heard in a class from **Rav Hershel Schachter** on the International Date Line where he discussed this **Chayei Adam**. You can listen to the relevant part [here](https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/725223/rabbi-hershel-schachter/international-date-line/
) (1:03:48-1:10:44). The following is a summary.
The **Arizal** is quoted by his student **Rav Chaim Vital** in **Eitz Chaim** *Sha'ar HaKavanos* [*Inyan Vayehi Noam s.v.* ובתחילה and ואחר קריאת](https://tablet.otzar.org./en/book/book.php?book=199098&pagenum=26) as saying that on Friday, already starting from the fifth hour of the day, the holiness of Shabbos is present in the world. He says from that point on a person can go to the Mikveh and accept Shabbos upon themselves.
**Rav Moshe Shternbuch** in **Moadim UZmanim** 7:236 in footnote א quotes from a *Kabbalist* named **Rav Yosef Shapira** *zt"l*, who explained the **Arizal** to mean that since in the far East parts of the world, namely Australia, they accept Shabbos eight hours before Jerusalem (12 hours into the day for them), that means at the beginning of the fifth hour of the day in Jerusalem (as the **Arizal** lived in Israel, so that was his point of view) there is already somewhere in the world that Jews are keeping Shabbos. That brings the holiness of Shabbos into the world, allowing everywhere else to accept it as well (this all assumes that the **Arizal** held like the **Chazon Ish** about where the International Date Line begins, which is a whole separate *shmooze*).
**Rav Shternbuch** adds that according to this explanation (which he adds has no support in the *poskim*), people in Europe can accept Shabbos already after only a few hours into the day (8 AM), and more surprisingly people in North America around Midnight the night before Friday. He doesn't discuss it, but I wonder what would be in Australia itself? Maybe this is only *lekulah*, for a leniency, but it doesn't create stringencies (as according to this, they can't accept Shabbos until it's sunset).
I might have missed if this is also in **Moadim UZmanim**, but **Rav Hershel Schachter** uses all of this to explain the **Chayei Adam**. He says the **Chayei Adam** is coming from the **Arizal**. Since the **Arizal** says the holiness of the day starts already from the fifth hour (although the **Chayei Adam** understood this to mean *after* five hours, which is an hour before *chatzos*; if you look at the **Arizal** the way we have it, he explicitly says the *start* of the fifth hour). Therefore that's the time to go to the *Mikveh* in preparation for that day. The same is true for Rosh Hashanah. **Rav Hershel Schachter** points out that according to this **Rav Yosef Shapira**, in America they wouldn't need to follow the **Chayei Adam**/**Mishnah Berurah** not to go before an hour before *chatzos*. Rather, they could go to the *Mikveh* even in the middle of the night, since somewhere in the world it's already Rosh Hashanah. Although, that's clearly not the practice.
**Bottom Line**: Apparently this **Chayei Adam** is based on the **Arizal**, so presumably it's *kabbalistic*. If you try to give a rational explanation to it, it creates problems. There's also a dispute if the **Arizal** means at the beginning of the fifth hour (two hours before *chatzos*), or after the fifth hour (an hour before *chatzos*, like the **Chayei Adam** understands).

**Bottom Line**: Apparently this **Chayei Adam** is based on the **Arizal**, so presumably it's *kabbalistic*. If you try to give a rational explanation to it, it creates problems. There's also a dispute if the **Arizal** means at the beginning of the fifth hour (two hours before *chatzos*), or after the fifth hour (an hour before *chatzos*, like the **Chayei Adam** understands).
-----------------------------------------
I heard in a class from **Rav Hershel Schachter** on the International Date Line where he discussed this **Chayei Adam**. You can listen to the relevant part [here](https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/725223/rabbi-hershel-schachter/international-date-line/
) (1:03:48-1:10:44). The following is a summary.
The **Arizal** is quoted by his student **Rav Chaim Vital** in **Eitz Chaim** *Sha'ar HaKavanos* [*Inyan Vayehi Noam s.v.* ובתחילה and ואחר קריאת](https://tablet.otzar.org./en/book/book.php?book=199098&pagenum=26) as saying that on Friday, already starting from the fifth hour of the day, the holiness of Shabbos is present in the world. He says from that point on a person can go to the Mikveh and accept Shabbos upon themselves.
**Rav Moshe Shternbuch** in **Moadim UZmanim** 7:236 in footnote א quotes from a *Kabbalist* named **Rav Yosef Shapira** *zt"l*, who explained the **Arizal** to mean that since in the far East parts of the world, namely Australia, they accept Shabbos eight hours before Jerusalem (12 hours into the day for them), that means at the beginning of the fifth hour of the day in Jerusalem (as the **Arizal** lived in Israel, so that was his point of view) there is already somewhere in the world that Jews are keeping Shabbos. That brings the holiness of Shabbos into the world, allowing everywhere else to accept it as well (this all assumes that the **Arizal** held like the **Chazon Ish** about where the International Date Line begins, which is a whole separate *shmooze*).
**Rav Hershel Schachter** points out that this idea also appears in the **Mishneh LaMelech**'s book **Parshas Derachim** [§ 23 *s.v.* עוד נקדים](https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=48331&st=&pgnum=274). He brings a *Midrash* מעולם לא זזה שכינה מישראל בשבתות וימים טובים ואפילו בשבת של חול, The Divine Presence never left the Jewish people on Shabbos, Yom Tov, and on the Shabbos of the Weekday (**Zohar** III [*parshas Korach* p. 179b](https://www.sefaria.org/Zohar.3.179b.2?lang=he&with=all&lang2=he)). What does this latter term refer to? He quotes his father's tacher [**Rav Zerachia Guto**](https://jewiki.org.il/w/index.php?title=%D7%98%D7%99%D7%95%D7%98%D7%94:%D7%A8%D7%91%D7%99_%D7%96%D7%A8%D7%97%D7%99%D7%94_%D7%92%D7%95%D7%98%D7%94&mobileaction=toggle_view_desktop) who says that in Heaven, Shabbos starts when Jerusalem starts keeping Shabbos. Since there are parts in the world that start keeping Shabbos before Jerusalem (i.e. Australia), that's called the Shabbos of the Weekday. Although it's still a weekday in Jerusalem, but there are Jews in the world observing Shabbos, still, the Divine Presence is with the Jewish people. We see that there's a holiness brought into the world when somewhere is keeping Shabbos.
**Rav Shternbuch** adds that according to this explanation (which he adds has no support in the *poskim*), people in Europe can accept Shabbos already after only a few hours into the day (8 AM), and more surprisingly people in North America around Midnight the night before Friday. He doesn't discuss it, but I wonder what would be in Australia itself? Maybe this is only *lekulah*, for a leniency, but it doesn't create stringencies (as according to this, they can't accept Shabbos until it's sunset).
I might have missed if this is also in **Moadim UZmanim**, but **Rav Hershel Schachter** uses all of this to explain the **Chayei Adam**. He says the **Chayei Adam** is coming from the **Arizal**. Since the **Arizal** says the holiness of the day starts already from the fifth hour (although the **Chayei Adam** understood this to mean *after* five hours, which is an hour before *chatzos*; if you look at the **Arizal** the way we have it, he explicitly says the *start* of the fifth hour). Therefore that's the time to go to the *Mikveh* in preparation for that day. The same is true for Rosh Hashanah. **Rav Hershel Schachter** points out that according to this **Rav Yosef Shapira**, in America they wouldn't need to follow the **Chayei Adam**/**Mishnah Berurah** not to go before an hour before *chatzos*. Rather, they could go to the *Mikveh* even in the middle of the night, since somewhere in the world it's already Rosh Hashanah. Although, that's clearly not the practice.

#6: Post edited by

robev‭ · 2020-07-20T15:26:06Z (over 4 years ago)

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This is probably not the answer you were expecting ;-).
I heard in a class from **Rav Hershel Schachter** on the International Date Line where he discussed this **Chayei Adam**. You can listen to the relevant part [here](https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/725223/rabbi-hershel-schachter/international-date-line/
) (1:03:48-1:10:44). The following is a summary.
The **Arizal** is quoted by his student **Rav Chaim Vital** in **Sefer HaKavanos** as saying that on Friday, already starting from the fifth hour of the day, the holiness of Shabbos is present in the world. He says from that point on a person can go to the Mikveh and accept Shabbos upon themselves.
**Rav Moshe Shternbuch** in **Moadim UZmanim** 7:236 in footnote א quotes from a *Kabbalist* named **Rav Yosef Shapira** *zt"l*, who explained the **Arizal** to mean that since in the far East parts of the world, namely Australia, they accept Shabbos eight hours before Jerusalem (12 hours into the day for them), that means at the beginning of the fifth hour of the day in Jerusalem (as the **Arizal** lived in Israel, so that was his point of view) there is already somewhere in the world that Jews are keeping Shabbos. That brings the holiness of Shabbos into the world, allowing everywhere else to accept it as well (this all assumes that the **Arizal** held like the **Chazon Ish** about where the International Date Line begins, which is a whole separate *shmooze*).
**Rav Shternbuch** adds that according to this explanation (which he adds has no support in the *poskim*), people in Europe can accept Shabbos already after only a few hours into the day (8 AM), and more surprisingly people in North America around Midnight the night before Friday. He doesn't discuss it, but I wonder what would be in Australia itself? Maybe this is only *lekulah*, for a leniency, but it doesn't create stringencies (as according to this, they can't accept Shabbos until it's sunset).
I might have missed if this is also in **Moadim UZmanim**, but **Rav Hershel Schachter** uses all of this to explain the **Chayei Adam**. He says the **Chayei Adam** is coming from the **Arizal**. Since the **Arizal** says the holiness of the day starts already from the fifth hour (although the **Chayei Adam** understood this to mean after five hours, which is an hour before *chatzos*). Therefore that's the time to go to the *Mikveh* in preparation for that day. The same is true for Rosh Hashanah. **Rav Hershel Schachter** points out that according to this **Rav Yosef Shapira**, in America they wouldn't need to follow the **Mishnah Berurah**. Rather, they could go to the *Mikveh* even in the middle of the night, since somewhere in the world it's already Rosh HaShanah. Although, that's clearly not the practice.
**Bottom Line**: Apparently this **Chayei Adam** is based on the **Arizal**, so presumably it's *kabbalistic*. If you try to give a rational explanation to it, it creates problems. There's also a dispute if the **Arizal** means at the beginning of the fifth hour (two hours before *chatzos*), or after the fifth hour (an hour before *chatzos*, like the **Chayei Adam** understands).

This is probably not the answer you were expecting ;-).
I heard in a class from **Rav Hershel Schachter** on the International Date Line where he discussed this **Chayei Adam**. You can listen to the relevant part [here](https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/725223/rabbi-hershel-schachter/international-date-line/
) (1:03:48-1:10:44). The following is a summary.
The **Arizal** is quoted by his student **Rav Chaim Vital** in **Eitz Chaim** *Sha'ar HaKavanos* [*Inyan Vayehi Noam s.v.* ובתחילה and ואחר קריאת](https://tablet.otzar.org./en/book/book.php?book=199098&pagenum=26) as saying that on Friday, already starting from the fifth hour of the day, the holiness of Shabbos is present in the world. He says from that point on a person can go to the Mikveh and accept Shabbos upon themselves.
**Rav Moshe Shternbuch** in **Moadim UZmanim** 7:236 in footnote א quotes from a *Kabbalist* named **Rav Yosef Shapira** *zt"l*, who explained the **Arizal** to mean that since in the far East parts of the world, namely Australia, they accept Shabbos eight hours before Jerusalem (12 hours into the day for them), that means at the beginning of the fifth hour of the day in Jerusalem (as the **Arizal** lived in Israel, so that was his point of view) there is already somewhere in the world that Jews are keeping Shabbos. That brings the holiness of Shabbos into the world, allowing everywhere else to accept it as well (this all assumes that the **Arizal** held like the **Chazon Ish** about where the International Date Line begins, which is a whole separate *shmooze*).
**Rav Shternbuch** adds that according to this explanation (which he adds has no support in the *poskim*), people in Europe can accept Shabbos already after only a few hours into the day (8 AM), and more surprisingly people in North America around Midnight the night before Friday. He doesn't discuss it, but I wonder what would be in Australia itself? Maybe this is only *lekulah*, for a leniency, but it doesn't create stringencies (as according to this, they can't accept Shabbos until it's sunset).
I might have missed if this is also in **Moadim UZmanim**, but **Rav Hershel Schachter** uses all of this to explain the **Chayei Adam**. He says the **Chayei Adam** is coming from the **Arizal**. Since the **Arizal** says the holiness of the day starts already from the fifth hour (although the **Chayei Adam** understood this to mean *after* five hours, which is an hour before *chatzos*; if you look at the **Arizal** the way we have it, he explicitly says the *start* of the fifth hour). Therefore that's the time to go to the *Mikveh* in preparation for that day. The same is true for Rosh Hashanah. **Rav Hershel Schachter** points out that according to this **Rav Yosef Shapira**, in America they wouldn't need to follow the **Chayei Adam**/**Mishnah Berurah** not to go before an hour before *chatzos*. Rather, they could go to the *Mikveh* even in the middle of the night, since somewhere in the world it's already Rosh Hashanah. Although, that's clearly not the practice.
**Bottom Line**: Apparently this **Chayei Adam** is based on the **Arizal**, so presumably it's *kabbalistic*. If you try to give a rational explanation to it, it creates problems. There's also a dispute if the **Arizal** means at the beginning of the fifth hour (two hours before *chatzos*), or after the fifth hour (an hour before *chatzos*, like the **Chayei Adam** understands).

#5: Post edited by

robev‭ · 2020-07-20T12:58:58Z (over 4 years ago)

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This is probably not the answer you were expecting ;-).
I heard in a class from **Rav Hershel Schachter** on the International Date Line where he discussed this **Chayei Adam**. You can listen to the relevant part [here](https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/725223/rabbi-hershel-schachter/international-date-line/
) (1:03:48-1:10:44). The following is a summary.
The **Arizal** is quoted by his student **Rav Chaim Vital** in **Sefer HaKavanos** as saying that on Friday, already starting from the fifth hour of the day, the holiness of Shabbos is present in the world. He says from that point on a person can go to the Mikveh and accept Shabbos upon themselves.
**Rav Moshe Shternbuch** in **Moadim UZmanim** 7:236 in footnote א quotes from a *Kabbalist* named **Rav Yosef Shapira** *zt"l*, who explained the **Arizal** to mean that since in the far East parts of the world, namely Australia, they accept Shabbos eight hours before Jerusalem (12 hours into the day for them), that means at the beginning of the fifth hour of the day in Jerusalem (as the **Arizal** lived in Israel, so that was his point of view) there is already somewhere in the world that Jews are keeping Shabbos. That brings the holiness of Shabbos into the world, allowing everywhere else to accept it as well (this all assumes that the **Arizal** held like the **Chazon Ish** about where the International Date Line begins, which is a whole separate *shmooze*).
**Rav Shternbuch** adds that according to this explanation (which he adds has no support in the *poskim*), people in Europe can accept Shabbos already after only a few hours into the day (8 AM), and more surprisingly people in North America around Midnight the night before Friday. He doesn't discuss it, but I wonder what would be in Australia itself? Maybe this is only *lekulah*, for a leniency, but it doesn't create stringencies (as according to this, they can't accept Shabbos until it's sunset).
I might have missed if this is also in **Moadim UZmanim**, but **Rav Hershel Schachter** uses all of this to explain the **Chayei Adam**. He says the **Chayei Adam** is coming from the **Arizal**. Since the **Arizal** says the holiness of the day starts already from the fifth hour (although the **Chayei Adam** understood this to mean after five hours, which is an hour before *chatzos*). Therefore that's the time to go to the *Mikveh* in preparation for that day. The same is true for Rosh Hashanah. **Rav Hershel Schachter** points out that according to this **Rav Yosef Shapira**, in America they wouldn't need to follow the **Mishnah Berurah**. Rather, they could go to the *Mikveh* even in the middle of the night, since somewhere in the world it's already Rosh HaShanah. Although, that's clearly not the practice.
**Bottom Line**: Apparently this **Chayei Adam** is based on the **Arizal**, so presumably it's *kabbalistic*. If you try to give a rational explanation to it, it creates problems.

This is probably not the answer you were expecting ;-).
I heard in a class from **Rav Hershel Schachter** on the International Date Line where he discussed this **Chayei Adam**. You can listen to the relevant part [here](https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/725223/rabbi-hershel-schachter/international-date-line/
) (1:03:48-1:10:44). The following is a summary.
The **Arizal** is quoted by his student **Rav Chaim Vital** in **Sefer HaKavanos** as saying that on Friday, already starting from the fifth hour of the day, the holiness of Shabbos is present in the world. He says from that point on a person can go to the Mikveh and accept Shabbos upon themselves.
**Rav Moshe Shternbuch** in **Moadim UZmanim** 7:236 in footnote א quotes from a *Kabbalist* named **Rav Yosef Shapira** *zt"l*, who explained the **Arizal** to mean that since in the far East parts of the world, namely Australia, they accept Shabbos eight hours before Jerusalem (12 hours into the day for them), that means at the beginning of the fifth hour of the day in Jerusalem (as the **Arizal** lived in Israel, so that was his point of view) there is already somewhere in the world that Jews are keeping Shabbos. That brings the holiness of Shabbos into the world, allowing everywhere else to accept it as well (this all assumes that the **Arizal** held like the **Chazon Ish** about where the International Date Line begins, which is a whole separate *shmooze*).
**Rav Shternbuch** adds that according to this explanation (which he adds has no support in the *poskim*), people in Europe can accept Shabbos already after only a few hours into the day (8 AM), and more surprisingly people in North America around Midnight the night before Friday. He doesn't discuss it, but I wonder what would be in Australia itself? Maybe this is only *lekulah*, for a leniency, but it doesn't create stringencies (as according to this, they can't accept Shabbos until it's sunset).
I might have missed if this is also in **Moadim UZmanim**, but **Rav Hershel Schachter** uses all of this to explain the **Chayei Adam**. He says the **Chayei Adam** is coming from the **Arizal**. Since the **Arizal** says the holiness of the day starts already from the fifth hour (although the **Chayei Adam** understood this to mean after five hours, which is an hour before *chatzos*). Therefore that's the time to go to the *Mikveh* in preparation for that day. The same is true for Rosh Hashanah. **Rav Hershel Schachter** points out that according to this **Rav Yosef Shapira**, in America they wouldn't need to follow the **Mishnah Berurah**. Rather, they could go to the *Mikveh* even in the middle of the night, since somewhere in the world it's already Rosh HaShanah. Although, that's clearly not the practice.
**Bottom Line**: Apparently this **Chayei Adam** is based on the **Arizal**, so presumably it's *kabbalistic*. If you try to give a rational explanation to it, it creates problems. There's also a dispute if the **Arizal** means at the beginning of the fifth hour (two hours before *chatzos*), or after the fifth hour (an hour before *chatzos*, like the **Chayei Adam** understands).

#4: Post edited by

robev‭ · 2020-07-20T12:58:06Z (over 4 years ago)

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This is probably not the answer you were expecting ;-).
I heard in a class from **Rav Hershel Schachter** on the International Date Line where he discussed this **Chayei Adam**. You can listen to the relevant part [here](https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/725223/rabbi-hershel-schachter/international-date-line/
) (1:03:48-1:10:44). The following is a summary.
The **Arizal** is quoted by his student **Rav Chaim Vital** in **Sefer HaKavanos** as saying that on Friday, already starting from the fifth hour of the day, the holiness of Shabbos is present in the world. He says from that point on a person can go to the Mikveh and accept Shabbos upon themselves.
**Rav Moshe Shternbuch** in **Moadim UZmanim** 7:236 in footnote א quotes from a *Kabbalist* named **Rav Yosef Shapira** *zt"l*, who explained the **Arizal** to mean that since in the far East parts of the world, namely Australia, they accept Shabbos eight hours before Jerusalem (12 hours into the day for them), that means at the beginning of the fifth hour of the day in Jerusalem (as the **Arizal** lived in Israel, so that was his point of view) there is already somewhere in the world that Jews are keeping Shabbos. That brings the holiness of Shabbos into the world, allowing everywhere else to accept it as well (this all assumes that the **Arizal** held like the **Chazon Ish** about where the International Date Line begins, which is a whole separate *shmooze*).
**Rav Shternbuch** adds that according to this explanation (which he adds has no support in the *poskim*), people in Europe can accept Shabbos already after only a few hours into the day (8 AM), and more surprisingly people in North America around Midnight the night before Friday.
I might have missed if this is also in **Moadim UZmanim**, but **Rav Hershel Schachter** uses all of this to explain the **Chayei Adam**. He says the **Chayei Adam** is coming from the **Arizal**. Since the **Arizal** says the holiness of the day starts already from the fifth hour (although the **Chayei Adam** understood this to mean after five hours, which is an hour before *chatzos*). Therefore that's the time to go to the *Mikveh* in preparation for that day. The same is true for Rosh Hashanah. **Rav Hershel Schachter** points out that according to this **Rav Yosef Shapira**, in America they wouldn't need to follow the **Mishnah Berurah**. Rather, they could go to the *Mikveh* even in the middle of the night, since somewhere in the world it's already Rosh HaShanah. Although, that's clearly not the practice.

This is probably not the answer you were expecting ;-).
I heard in a class from **Rav Hershel Schachter** on the International Date Line where he discussed this **Chayei Adam**. You can listen to the relevant part [here](https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/725223/rabbi-hershel-schachter/international-date-line/
) (1:03:48-1:10:44). The following is a summary.
The **Arizal** is quoted by his student **Rav Chaim Vital** in **Sefer HaKavanos** as saying that on Friday, already starting from the fifth hour of the day, the holiness of Shabbos is present in the world. He says from that point on a person can go to the Mikveh and accept Shabbos upon themselves.
**Rav Moshe Shternbuch** in **Moadim UZmanim** 7:236 in footnote א quotes from a *Kabbalist* named **Rav Yosef Shapira** *zt"l*, who explained the **Arizal** to mean that since in the far East parts of the world, namely Australia, they accept Shabbos eight hours before Jerusalem (12 hours into the day for them), that means at the beginning of the fifth hour of the day in Jerusalem (as the **Arizal** lived in Israel, so that was his point of view) there is already somewhere in the world that Jews are keeping Shabbos. That brings the holiness of Shabbos into the world, allowing everywhere else to accept it as well (this all assumes that the **Arizal** held like the **Chazon Ish** about where the International Date Line begins, which is a whole separate *shmooze*).
**Rav Shternbuch** adds that according to this explanation (which he adds has no support in the *poskim*), people in Europe can accept Shabbos already after only a few hours into the day (8 AM), and more surprisingly people in North America around Midnight the night before Friday. He doesn't discuss it, but I wonder what would be in Australia itself? Maybe this is only *lekulah*, for a leniency, but it doesn't create stringencies (as according to this, they can't accept Shabbos until it's sunset).
I might have missed if this is also in **Moadim UZmanim**, but **Rav Hershel Schachter** uses all of this to explain the **Chayei Adam**. He says the **Chayei Adam** is coming from the **Arizal**. Since the **Arizal** says the holiness of the day starts already from the fifth hour (although the **Chayei Adam** understood this to mean after five hours, which is an hour before *chatzos*). Therefore that's the time to go to the *Mikveh* in preparation for that day. The same is true for Rosh Hashanah. **Rav Hershel Schachter** points out that according to this **Rav Yosef Shapira**, in America they wouldn't need to follow the **Mishnah Berurah**. Rather, they could go to the *Mikveh* even in the middle of the night, since somewhere in the world it's already Rosh HaShanah. Although, that's clearly not the practice.
**Bottom Line**: Apparently this **Chayei Adam** is based on the **Arizal**, so presumably it's *kabbalistic*. If you try to give a rational explanation to it, it creates problems.

#3: Post edited by

robev‭ · 2020-07-20T04:22:17Z (over 4 years ago)

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This is probably not the answer you were expecting ;-).
I heard in a class from **Rav Hershel Schachter** on the International Date Line where he discussed this **Chayei Adam**. You can listen to the relevant part [here](https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/725223/rabbi-hershel-schachter/international-date-line/
) (1:03:48-1:10:44). The following is a summary.
The **Arizal** is quoted by his student **Rav Chaim Vital** in **Sefer HaKavanos** as saying that on Friday, already starting from the fifth hour of the day, the holiness of Shabbos is present in the world. He says from that point on a person can go to the Mikveh and accept Shabbos upon themselves.
**Rav Moshe Shternbuch** in **Moadim UZmanim** 7:236 in footnote א quotes from a *Kabbalist* named **Rav Yosef Shapira** *zt"l*, who explained the **Arizal** to mean that since in the far East parts of the world, namely Australia, they accept Shabbos eight hours before Jerusalem (12 hours into the day for them), that means at the beginning of the fifth hour of the day in Jerusalem (as the **Arizal** lived in Israel, so that was his point of view) there is already somewhere in the world that Jews are keeping Shabbos. That brings the holiness of Shabbos into the world, allowing everywhere else to accept it as well (this all assumes that the **Arizal** held like the **Chazon Ish** about where the International Date Line begins, which is a whole separate *shmooze*).
**Rav Shternbuch** adds that according to this explanation (which he adds has no support in the *poskim*), people in Europe can accept Shabbos already after only a few hours into the day (8 AM), and more surprisingly people in North America around Midnight the night before Friday.
I might have missed if this is also in **Moadim UZmanim**, but **Rav Hershel Schachter** uses all of this to explain the **Chayei Adam**. He says the **Chayei Adam** is coming from the **Arizal**. Since the Arizal says the holiness of the day starts already from the fifth hour (although the **Chayei Adam** understood this to mean after five hours, which is an hour before *chatzos*). Therefore that's the time to go to the *Mikveh* in preparation for that day. The same is true for Rosh Hashanah. **Rav Hershel Schachter** points out that according to this **Rav Yosef Shapira**, in America they wouldn't need to follow the **Mishnah Berurah**. Rather, they could go to the *Mikveh* even in the middle of the night, since somewhere in the world it's already Rosh HaShanah. Although, that's clearly not the practice.

This is probably not the answer you were expecting ;-).
I heard in a class from **Rav Hershel Schachter** on the International Date Line where he discussed this **Chayei Adam**. You can listen to the relevant part [here](https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/725223/rabbi-hershel-schachter/international-date-line/
) (1:03:48-1:10:44). The following is a summary.
The **Arizal** is quoted by his student **Rav Chaim Vital** in **Sefer HaKavanos** as saying that on Friday, already starting from the fifth hour of the day, the holiness of Shabbos is present in the world. He says from that point on a person can go to the Mikveh and accept Shabbos upon themselves.
**Rav Moshe Shternbuch** in **Moadim UZmanim** 7:236 in footnote א quotes from a *Kabbalist* named **Rav Yosef Shapira** *zt"l*, who explained the **Arizal** to mean that since in the far East parts of the world, namely Australia, they accept Shabbos eight hours before Jerusalem (12 hours into the day for them), that means at the beginning of the fifth hour of the day in Jerusalem (as the **Arizal** lived in Israel, so that was his point of view) there is already somewhere in the world that Jews are keeping Shabbos. That brings the holiness of Shabbos into the world, allowing everywhere else to accept it as well (this all assumes that the **Arizal** held like the **Chazon Ish** about where the International Date Line begins, which is a whole separate *shmooze*).
**Rav Shternbuch** adds that according to this explanation (which he adds has no support in the *poskim*), people in Europe can accept Shabbos already after only a few hours into the day (8 AM), and more surprisingly people in North America around Midnight the night before Friday.
I might have missed if this is also in **Moadim UZmanim**, but **Rav Hershel Schachter** uses all of this to explain the **Chayei Adam**. He says the **Chayei Adam** is coming from the **Arizal**. Since the **Arizal** says the holiness of the day starts already from the fifth hour (although the **Chayei Adam** understood this to mean after five hours, which is an hour before *chatzos*). Therefore that's the time to go to the *Mikveh* in preparation for that day. The same is true for Rosh Hashanah. **Rav Hershel Schachter** points out that according to this **Rav Yosef Shapira**, in America they wouldn't need to follow the **Mishnah Berurah**. Rather, they could go to the *Mikveh* even in the middle of the night, since somewhere in the world it's already Rosh HaShanah. Although, that's clearly not the practice.

#2: Post edited by

robev‭ · 2020-07-20T04:21:41Z (over 4 years ago)

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This is probably not the answer you were expecting ;-).
I heard in a class from **Rav Hershel Schachter** on the International Date Line where he discussed this **Chayei Adam**. You can listen to the relevant part [here](https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/725223/rabbi-hershel-schachter/international-date-line/
) (1:03:48-1:10:44). The following is a summary.
The **Arizal** is quoted by his student **Rav Chaim Vital** in **Sefer HaKavanos** as saying that on Friday, already starting from the fifth hour of the day, the holiness of Shabbos is present in the world. He says from that point on a person can go to the Mikveh and accept Shabbos upon themselves.
**Rav Moshe Shternbuch** in **Moadim UZmanim** 7:236 in footnote א quotes from a *Kabbalist* named **Rav Yosef Shapira** *zt"l*, who explained the **Arizal** to mean that since in the far East parts of the world, namely Australia, they accept Shabbos eight hours before Jerusalem (12 hours into the day for them), that means at the beginning of the fifth hour of the day in Jerusalem (as the **Arizal** lived in Israel, so that was his point of view) there is already somewhere in the world that Jews are keeping Shabbos. That brings the holiness of Shabbos into the world, allowing everywhere else to accept it as well (this all assumes that the **Arizal** held like the **Chazon Ish** about where the International Date Line begins, which is a whole separate *shmooze*).
**Rav Shternbuch** adds that according to this explanation (which he adds has no support in the *poskim*), people in Europe can accept Shabbos only a few hours into the day (8 AM), and more surprisingly people in North America around Midnight the night before Friday.
I might have missed if this is also in **Moadim UZmanim**, but **Rav Hershel Schachter** uses all of this to explain the **Chayei Adam**. He says the **Chayei Adam** is coming from the **Arizal**. Since the Arizal says the holiness of the day starts already from the fifth hour (although the **Chayei Adam** understood this to mean after five hours, which is an hour before *chatzos*). Therefore that's the time to go to the *Mikveh* in preparation for that day. The same is true for Rosh Hashanah. **Rav Hershel Schachter** points out that according to this **Rav Yosef Shapira**, in America they wouldn't need to follow the **Mishnah Berurah**. Rather, they could go to the *Mikveh* even in the middle of the night, since somewhere in the world it's already Rosh HaShanah. Although, that's clearly not the practice.

This is probably not the answer you were expecting ;-).
I heard in a class from **Rav Hershel Schachter** on the International Date Line where he discussed this **Chayei Adam**. You can listen to the relevant part [here](https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/725223/rabbi-hershel-schachter/international-date-line/
) (1:03:48-1:10:44). The following is a summary.
The **Arizal** is quoted by his student **Rav Chaim Vital** in **Sefer HaKavanos** as saying that on Friday, already starting from the fifth hour of the day, the holiness of Shabbos is present in the world. He says from that point on a person can go to the Mikveh and accept Shabbos upon themselves.
**Rav Moshe Shternbuch** in **Moadim UZmanim** 7:236 in footnote א quotes from a *Kabbalist* named **Rav Yosef Shapira** *zt"l*, who explained the **Arizal** to mean that since in the far East parts of the world, namely Australia, they accept Shabbos eight hours before Jerusalem (12 hours into the day for them), that means at the beginning of the fifth hour of the day in Jerusalem (as the **Arizal** lived in Israel, so that was his point of view) there is already somewhere in the world that Jews are keeping Shabbos. That brings the holiness of Shabbos into the world, allowing everywhere else to accept it as well (this all assumes that the **Arizal** held like the **Chazon Ish** about where the International Date Line begins, which is a whole separate *shmooze*).
**Rav Shternbuch** adds that according to this explanation (which he adds has no support in the *poskim*), people in Europe can accept Shabbos already after only a few hours into the day (8 AM), and more surprisingly people in North America around Midnight the night before Friday.
I might have missed if this is also in **Moadim UZmanim**, but **Rav Hershel Schachter** uses all of this to explain the **Chayei Adam**. He says the **Chayei Adam** is coming from the **Arizal**. Since the Arizal says the holiness of the day starts already from the fifth hour (although the **Chayei Adam** understood this to mean after five hours, which is an hour before *chatzos*). Therefore that's the time to go to the *Mikveh* in preparation for that day. The same is true for Rosh Hashanah. **Rav Hershel Schachter** points out that according to this **Rav Yosef Shapira**, in America they wouldn't need to follow the **Mishnah Berurah**. Rather, they could go to the *Mikveh* even in the middle of the night, since somewhere in the world it's already Rosh HaShanah. Although, that's clearly not the practice.

#1: Initial revision by

robev‭ · 2020-07-20T04:20:21Z (over 4 years ago)

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This is probably not the answer you were expecting ;-).

I heard in a class from **Rav Hershel Schachter** on the International Date Line where he discussed this **Chayei Adam**. You can listen to the relevant part [here](https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/725223/rabbi-hershel-schachter/international-date-line/
) (1:03:48-1:10:44). The following is a summary.

The **Arizal** is quoted by his student **Rav Chaim Vital** in **Sefer HaKavanos** as saying that on Friday, already starting from the fifth hour of the day, the holiness of Shabbos is present in the world. He says from that point on a person can go to the Mikveh and accept Shabbos upon themselves.

**Rav Moshe Shternbuch** in **Moadim UZmanim** 7:236 in footnote א quotes from a *Kabbalist* named **Rav Yosef Shapira** *zt"l*, who explained the **Arizal** to mean that since in the far East parts of the world, namely Australia, they accept Shabbos eight hours before Jerusalem (12 hours into the day for them), that means at the beginning of the fifth hour of the day in Jerusalem (as the **Arizal** lived in Israel, so that was his point of view) there is already somewhere in the world that Jews are keeping Shabbos. That brings the holiness of Shabbos into the world, allowing everywhere else to accept it as well (this all assumes that the **Arizal** held like the **Chazon Ish** about where the International Date Line begins, which is a whole separate *shmooze*).

**Rav Shternbuch** adds that according to this explanation (which he adds has no support in the *poskim*), people in Europe can accept Shabbos only a few hours into the day (8 AM), and more surprisingly people in North America around Midnight the night before Friday.

I might have missed if this is also in **Moadim UZmanim**, but **Rav Hershel Schachter** uses all of this to explain the **Chayei Adam**. He says the **Chayei Adam** is coming from the **Arizal**. Since the Arizal says the holiness of the day starts already from the fifth hour (although the **Chayei Adam** understood this to mean after five hours, which is an hour before *chatzos*). Therefore that's the time to go to the *Mikveh* in preparation for that day. The same is true for Rosh Hashanah. **Rav Hershel Schachter** points out that according to this **Rav Yosef Shapira**, in America they wouldn't need to follow the **Mishnah Berurah**. Rather, they could go to the *Mikveh* even in the middle of the night, since somewhere in the world it's already Rosh HaShanah. Although, that's clearly not the practice.

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