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Comments on Different reading of Rashb"i story

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Different reading of Rashb"i story

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At the end of Rashb"i story of being in the cave (Shabbat 34:a), Rabbi Shimon causes the death of an elder that "misbehaved".

I always read it like this:

words in [] are added to the Gemara text

A certain elder said :"Ben Yoḥai purified the cemetery". [Therefore giving all the credit to Rabbi Shimon] [Rabbi Shimon got angry and said to him:] Had you not been with us, and even had you been with us and were not counted with us in rendering this ruling, what you say is fine, But now, that you were with us and were counted with us in rendering this ruling, you will cause people to say that Sages don't give credit to each other. They will say: If [competing] prostitutes still apply makeup to each other to help one another look beautiful, all the more so that Torah scholars [should credit each other]. He directed his eyes toward him and the Elder died

But it seems, that the interpreters explain the story like this:

A certain Elder said [in ridicule and surprise]: Ben Yoḥai purified the cemetery. [Rabbi Shimon got angry and said to him]: Had you not been with us, and even had you been with us and were not counted with us in rendering this ruling, what you say is fine. [You could have said that you were unaware of my intention or that you did not agree or participate in this decision]. Now that you were with us and were counted with us in rendering this ruling, [you will cause people to say that Sages are unwilling to cooperate with one another]. They will say: If [competing] prostitutes still apply makeup to each other to help one another look beautiful, all the more so that Torah scholars [should cooperate with each other]. He directed his eyes toward him and the Elder died

My understanding fits better to the words, but makes Rabbi Shimon more easy to become angry Is there an interpreter that support my way of reading?

masechet-shabbat
posted over 4 years ago
4y ago
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Alaychem‭
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1 comment thread

General comments (12 comments)
General comments
DonielF‭ wrote over 4 years ago
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Where did you see this alternative reading?

Alaychem‭ wrote over 4 years ago · edited over 4 years ago
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@DonielF What do you call alternative, the first or the second?

Harel13‭ wrote over 4 years ago
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I didn't quite understand your own take on the gemara: Is Rabbi Shimon angry at the sage because he gave R"S all the credit, thus making it seem as though R"S is taking all the credit for himself?

Alaychem‭ wrote over 4 years ago
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@Harel13 Correct.

Harel13‭ wrote over 4 years ago
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@Alaychem and you see this as a legitimate reason to turn the other guy into a pile of bones? Mainly because of this, the English Sefaria understanding and that of commentators brought by Sefaria, which you brought as the 2nd option, seems to me to make more sense.

Alaychem‭ wrote over 4 years ago
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@Harel13 And the other option is legit?

Harel13‭ wrote over 4 years ago
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@Alaychem it seems to make more sense, considering the punishment. It seems to be a much greater chilul Hashem.

Alaychem‭ wrote over 4 years ago
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@Harel13 Since both options are harsh anyway, I think my reading is possible for it's fits the wording better.

Harel13‭ wrote over 4 years ago · edited over 4 years ago
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@Alaychem the root of the problem with your interpretation, in my understanding, lies in the metaphor Rashbi brings, with the prostitutes: In the second option, it makes sense: both the chachamim and, l'havdil, the prostitutes are usually competing but from time to time must come to agree on something and help one another for everyone's benefit. However, in your version, there isn't any competing in the chamim because that sage gave Rashbi all the credit, thus, the metaphor doesn't make sense.

Alaychem‭ wrote over 4 years ago
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@Harel13 Punkt Fakert (The exact opposite). In my suggestion, the metaphor is stronger. People will say, "prostitutes (who compete) credit each other, but Rashb"i didn't credit his fellow sage?!" BTW the word competing is not part of the Gemara, I edited my question.

Alaychem‭ wrote over 4 years ago
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@Harel13 Two question that rise when interpreting as the "classic" reading: Why the sage didn't agree with Rashb"i? And why he played that trick, instead telling Rasb"i that he disagrees?

Harel13‭ wrote over 4 years ago
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@Alaychem you make a very fair point about the metaphor. On your other questions, I need to think on some more. However, it still seems strange to me that Rashbi in your version could have rectified the situation easily by crediting the other sage. Why kill him?